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Have you found other sources of materials for making packrafts, like TPU-coated fabric and inflation valves? Maybe you are overseas and the shipping is cheaper from a supplier close to you. Tell us about it, and please review the quality – especially if you have compared it to the stuff I offer.
Of course I want people to purchase things from the DIY Packraft shop, but if you can save money and get good quality products elsewhere, everyone should know!
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Hi all,
Since Matt is not selling any more fabric by meter, where do you aquire tpu nylon for your projects? I am more interesting in Europe. I have red that the 275gr/m2 from extretextil is not a good solution, but those posts were 5 years ago. Is it nowdays a good solution https://www.extremtextil.de/en/nylon-210den-tpu-coated-one-side-275g-sqm-heat-sealable.html ?
Thanks in advance
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Hi All,
I’m working on an inflatable project that requires heavier fabric, like 420D or 840D. I’ve been working directly with fabric suppliers since bulk fabric isn’t for sale on here right now. The samples are welding well. Before I pull the trigger on an order, I figured I’d post here to see if anyone else is looking for bulk heavy fabric. The fabric would be cheaper for us all if I order in larger quantities. Here are the fabrics I’m looking at now:
- 420D 380gsm single sided TPU (gray)
- 420D 570gsm double sided TPU (blue)
- 840D 700gsm double sided TPU (white)
Colors are somewhat tentative. I don’t care about color really, so that’s flexible. We can work out specifics later. I’m mostly just trying to get a sense of interest. Thanks
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There’s currently a sell-off of a 100 Liter (no idea much this is cubic inches) inflation bag on German eBay and similar sites, for around 5 Eurones. Just in time, as I anyway wanted to build an XXL inflation bag. The Produkt is called Fluxbag: https://www.google.com/search?q=fluxbag&rlz=1C1CHBF_deDE790DE790&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiAztLe-ezpAhU-QUEAHUhRADIQ_AUoA3oECB8QBQ&biw=1920&bih=888
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Harald,
now it is much clearer and my valves are mostly the same as yours. I was a little bit afraid to drill a hole in the cap, because I thought I will not get it airtight again.
Also thinking about installing a second valve without a flap, for deflation. This will make rolling up the packraft much easier. But for now I open the zipper a little bit. Works the same.
I glued another cap in the inflation bag. Works great and is simple.
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Hi Christian,
here’s everything on one photo.
– The collar of the bottle is sandwiched for stability between two circles of fabric. The flap (in red) can be any type of tissue. As a valve this works the better the higher the pressure. I use it only to assist with manual inflation, so high precision was not my goal. (The dirt on the blue circles is glue residues. I could have protected the surfaces with tape, but these are from some prototype). On the inflatable seat I don’t use flaps on the “valves”.
To keep the threads of the caps tight, I use the TIZIP silicone grease for now, which to me looks like simple silicone vacuum grease.
– To secure the bottle cap I made a hole with a Swiss Army knife, secured the cord with a knot and E6000 (from China) glue inside and outside. E6000 adheres well to polypropylene, is a bit elastic and acts here more as a sealant than an adhesive. I assume many other adhesives/sealants would work as long as they stick to the polypropylene.
– as a bonus I show the garden hose adapter which connect’s Matt’s inflation blag to the bottle valve. Works really well. -
Hi, my packraft seat (2nd thing i seam sealed) is terrible ive tried to patch it up with sealant but it is just loosing air. My packraft thankfully had no major leaks couple pin hole size leaks easily repaired. So im at point i just want to redo seat. Id ideally like to find black fabric. Also for my next packraft (i ordered yellow) but my son wants boston bruins colours and we want to swap out a couple pieces of yellow for black (and Matt is out of black). Anyone have a source for black i can tedo seat and maybe swap out yellow so we can have a Bruins packraft 🙂 i currently am building 2 more skeena so same weight TPU as yellow. Thanks Lisa
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Since my inflatable seat was developing leak after leak I glued one together using vinyl cement and some cheap (20 Eurones) white 500g/sqm vinyl (PVC tarpaulin) from ebay. Works like a charm, no leaks, I did not even bother to add seam strips.
Since the seat worked so well I decided to build a packraft prototype from the rest of the vinyl. The build process was a bit less orderly than what you see in Matt’s videos and completely different since everything was glued, not heat sealed – today I took the raft out for a succesfull bikerafting test.
It weighs exactly 3 kgs before adding attachment points, the seat weighs 600 g. I used bottle cap valves for both the seat and the raft. I like them better than the boston valves since it is easy to make adaptors like one for the inflation bag, another one for an inflation tube etc. There are two “valves” on the raft: one for inflating and one for deflating.
I also added a DIY Packaft logo using the good old “rubbing accetone on a laser print” technique, but unfortunately it was on a position that was later needed for an attachment point 🙁
Here are some photos of the loaded raft:
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3d-printed valves and fittings!
Yes you can 3d-print solid TPU.
It is actually a common material in the 3d-printing world.
TPU Filament is available in a variety of colours and flexibility.
I have allready successfully 3d-printed a tube/fitting for a top-up valve.
The part was designed in Fusion360. The fabric was then ironed on the printed part. TPU on TPU. The printed material and the TPU fabric made a very strong bond.
TPU is usually printed at 220-240 Celsius.
So if you have a 3d printer or a friend that owns one or even access to a Fablab this might be someting for you.
If you have a good idea for a part please tell me. I might work it out and share the files on Thingyverse.
A bit more elegant alternative for connection Inflation Bag/Boston valve for example… hmm
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Did anyone ever find a heavier material for North American customers? I noticed a comment where Matt said heavier material would be available soon but I don’t see anything in the shop yet.
I am interested in materials upto and maybe over 1000 denier. Cordura or ballistic or vectran or options would be great. Something heavy and two sided would be great too.
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hello,
today i get my samples from extremtextil.
the next days my irons should arrive that i can start research.
question to you?
are the most material is only one site coated?
is anywere fabric achievable which is one site tpu and the other site pu?
thanks for answers in advance.
mike
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Hi Mike,
Most of the fabrics available are only coated on one side, except for the heavier fabrics in the DIY Packraft shop, and possibly some sold elsewhere. I used to have fabrics with PU coating on the other side from the TPU, but PU is not as good as TPU. You will find that most PU coatings are not airtight or waterproof and can rub off with a hot iron.
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Does anyone have more info on the fabrics available from Seattle Fabrics? Considering Matt’s fabric importing situation and the fact that I’m in the greater Seattle area, it might be in my best interest to get fabric there. Since I have zero experience in raft building, I don’t know the differences and potential problems with Seattle fabrics’ material. Thoughts?
Thanks in advance
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Check posts 2248, 2771, and 2901 for fabrics from Seattle and Rockywoods. There are many other posts here from people who have tried other fabrics and concluded that it was a mistake. Currently Matt is the only supplier offering the correct fabric to the public. I speak as someone who bought the wrong stuff in the past and will not again – shipping delays and costs will soon be forgotten while your project, built well or badly, will stay with you.
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500den TPU Cordura from extremtextil
FYI: I have just made a test weld on this with a strip of Matt’s camo fabric, using the hot air gun, and can report that the result is perfect. The weld is very strong, and with no sign at all of heat damage to the fabric it can fairly be assumed to be the ’66’ variant. The TPU coating is thick and the cordura face is tough. Very happy to use this for the floor.
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I’m just getting into this, IS PU coated fabric the same as TPU coated fabric?
sorry if it is a dumb question.
-Matt
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Nope, they’re different – TPU is heat sealable, while PU is not. You can read more about them on the Fabrics page. Cheers!
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Valves
Boston valves: I searched around to see if I could find a cheaper Boston Valve, no luck in New Zealand, all I managed to find were replacement inserts, not the flanged valve itself. I ended up buying from Aliexpress for $6 USD a piece with free shipping. They seem to be good quality, I ordered three and they all came as yellow ones.
Top Off/seat Valves: Once again my search had limited success, I found spare valves for NRS kayak buoyancy bags for $1.49 NZD a piece which fit onto I think 8mm clear PVC tubing but finding a flanged fitting to attach it to the raft has proved difficult. I then realised that inflatable lifejackets have a very similar valve that can be cut out and repurposed. Life jacket service agents might give you these for free (I got four from RFD/Survivortec), if they come with the lifejackets then there may be other useful fittings (buckles, D-rings and clips) as well.
Inflatable mattresses (e.g. that holey Thermarest in the back of the cupboard) also have valves that may be useful.
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STEER CLEAR OF EXTREME TEXTIL (http://www.extremtextil.de)
Due to Matt running out material and me being super keen to get a packraft together before easter (two weeks away) I ordered from Extreme Textil. I ordered 210d TPU coated one side 275g/sqm, heat sealable (product #71100) in orange and blue, I also ordered 70d TPU, coated one side 170g/sqm, heat sealable (product #71106). I was quite pleased to receive the package and went about marking and cutting the pattern. At this point I became concerned that the fabric was too easy to cut, particularly the 70d, it also rips surprisingly easily. The non-TPU side is an oxford weave with no coating.
After cutting and marking I have done some trials to learn how to seal the fabric. The 210d fabric seals reasonably easily, although it is easier to pull apart than I expected. The 70d fabric does not make a seal, I’ve tried everything and it appears that the melting point of the TPU is higher than the melting point of the fabric. I have experimented with both temperature and pressure and cannot get a seal to form at all. Attempting to seal the 210d to the 70d resulted in the TPU on the 210d sticking weakly to the 70d TPU.
Looks like I’m not going to have a boat for my Easter packrafting trip. I’ve also wasted quite a lot of money and time with the wrong fabric. Really disappointed. I’ve written back to Extreme Textil asking for a refund, I’ll update on their customer service if and when I can sort something out with them.
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Bought plans from Matt, size large. Fabric fra extremtextil, 210 D tpu singel coated side for tubes and dobbel coated side 210 D for floor. Heating and bonding this together is no problem if you have the right tool. I´m using Coverite 21ST Century Sealing Iron on max temp and it is no problem to bond. Ok the fabric is lower quality than Matt is offering, but I could always seal in a extra layer on the tubes if I want, as I planed with the floor. But I also ordered a new kit from Matt and will problably in the future order some raw fabric from Matt and build size Large Packraft in his fabric to. Have a BIG family, 2 adults and 6 kids so… 😉
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I also ordered the 70d fabric from extremtextil. I prefer Matt’s fabric but I wanted something around 5oz to make an inflatable seat. I agree that the nylon 66 is much better with it’s higher melting point. However I was able to work with this fabric and made a seat. With my Clover 2 iron on med setting I couldn’t get a seal. And on high I melted the fabric. To get something in between, I used a strip of masking tape over aluminum foil between the iron and fabric to create a kind of temperature buffer. This worked fine and I was able to get good seal, but I did have to go over the seams a few times. I can sit on the seat and it holds air.
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i say it again : to work with 210d from extremtextil you need a digital soldering station and
important: teflonfoil between the iron and fabric ! my working temperature is 430 degree
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Perhaps, Matt, this would be a good time to add a note to your shop page about the risk of buying fabric from other sources that is not marked ‘nylon 66’, and a link to this thread (saying to read it all – it’s too easy to miss important bits in a long thread). Many of us have been caught by this issue now, and I’m sure that we would all regard such a note as helpful to your customers rather than just pushy.
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Hi,
anyone interested in buying Matt’s material IN EUROPE for making a sweet 210D yellow packraft with a black floor (Boston + top-up valve + PLANS for a large packraft included)?
I have finally decided not to make the packraft by myself. It is certainly possible (I made a seat and some demo seams) but I do not fully trust my skills and the iron temperature issue is raising additional concerns.
Since you will not have to pay the import tarrifs, VAT (it is already in the EU) and expensive shipping from Canada we can certainly make a good deal for EU people. In order not to spam you can write me on oskarkulik@gmail.com.
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They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery… check out this copycat DIY Packraft shop – they even call their product a DIY Packraft Kit 😀
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Rather more than imitation, it looks almost like a straight rip-off. A whois shows the site was registered on 5.01.2017 by a Nick Kowalski in Somerset. The videos and instructions are “available after purchase of a kit” – why are these not public??? He will sell you a sample pack of red, blue and black fabrics, but only sells the kit in green. Hmm. While many of us are fans of green boats, the shade he offers looks more neon than stealth.
Take it as a compliment Matt, and keep going. You’re doing an excellent job.
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Haha yeah – nothing is actually copied and pasted, but so far it doesn’t look like this Nick Kowalski character has anything new to offer, aside from his location.
As far as I can tell he hasn’t even built a packraft yet, which makes his “Iron Raft” venture quite a bold move… unless he’s selling someone else’s proven design.
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Any suggestions regarding heavier material or more abrasion resistant material for Skin on Frame (SOF) kayaks, canoes, or in my case a row boat? The heat sealing is most attractive and I could try ironing on a double bottom, but the bottom is the one the area least needing heat shrinkage. Most SOF builders use 8 oz. nylon or dacron, which is then painted. But the paint cracks and is contra-indicated if one is planning on folding up the boat and tossing it in an aircraft, for example. And while pack rafts are fantastic, they aren’t what I’m looking for. Thanks.
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@brucecampbell Hi Bruce,
The 210D fabric offered here is 8.25 oz (about 4 oz before coating). Doubled up, it would be much stronger than a painted 8 oz fabric because unlike paint, the TPU adds quite a bit of strength.
Seattle Fabrics offers a 430D heat sealable nylon, but it’s actually lighter than my 210D fabric, at 8.2 oz, which just goes to show that denier (D) isn’t everything (see the Fabrics page for an explanation). Stay away from their non-heat sealable PU-coated fabrics, as the coatings are so thin they are not waterproof (I have samples).
I have tried coating fabrics with paint-on “flexible” polyurethane, but it cracks and separates from the fabric when folded, so it’s not suitable if you want a truly packable boat.
I think Extrim Textil in Germany might offer some heavier fabrics, but the cost of getting it to Alaska might be prohibitive.
Eventually I will add heavier fabrics to the shop, but these things take time to develop and I have learned to stop estimating timelines when dealing with manufacturers!
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TPU Coating BOTH SIDES:
Has anybody found a source for TPU Coating on BOTH sides? Would be great to source this material in Nylon 66 and 200+ denier – especially to make a raft that will hold air better and last longer – perfect for a 2 person raft on whitewater.TPU Coating on Inside Build:
I am currently building my packraft (via Matt’s plans) with TPU on the inside, because I want to ensure the longest life of the raft… I intend on using it on shallower and rocky rivers/creeks. I forseee the TPU coating rubbing/wearing away too fast if on on outside. The assembly of TPU inside compared to TPU outside is more involved and bit tricky. Any tips/tricks from others who have ventured down this path?Cheers!
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Don’t tell anyone, but double coated 420D and 1000D fabrics will be added to the shop later this Spring 😉
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Would these be coming in the same shipment as the new green fabric, by some lucky chance? What sort of weight will the 420d be?
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I have been using two-sided 70D Ripstop nylon from Rockywoods Fabrics as a middle layer in accessory patches for tie points. It serves to increase the strength of the patch over a two layer patch.
I would not suggest it for a raft because the TPU coating peels off the nylon. The coating does not appear to be as well bonded to the fabric. I seem to recall the manufacturing of top-of-the-line TPU coated fabrics like DIY sells as requiring multiple rollings to impress the coating into the weave of the cloth. None of the samples I have received from Rockywoods, Seattle Fabrics came close to the much higher quality fabric DIY provides. Extrim Textil had interesting double coated and one sided fabric, but cost was European in scale and shipping unimaginable.
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Hi @michael-s-morse,
I and a few others have experimented with fabric with TPU on both sides, but everyone has concluded that it is unsuitable because it is very difficult to heat seal – you can’t apply heat directly to it with a sealing iron because the iron melts the TPU, creating a sticky mess. You have to sandwich it between two layers of another fabric, which adds a significant amount of time and complexity to your build.
So far I haven’t seen evidence of the TPU-out design being less durable than TPU-in, but time will tell. If anyone wants to build TPU-in packrafts, they could use my original V1 plans (I still have a few sets available – send me a message if interested), or modify the V2 plans as follows:
1. Add ~4 cm length to the “tail” ends of the five tube patterns (each piece is roughly fish-shaped).
2. Cut the floor pattern in half, lengthwise.
3. Tape the five tube patterns to the half-floor pattern in their respective positions (numbered 1-5, between the circled dots on the floor).
4. Follow the instructions/videos for the original plans, currently posted at the bottom of the How-To menu.Cheers!
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Hallo, I orderd first also an packraft-plan from matt, idea was buy fabric from extremtextile and made a raft. First start with the free seat and the tafetta TPU, terrible project. Orderd stronger material 270 den TPU from extremtextile in different collors to try, same result. Good thanks Matt startet with own precuted Kit 2, well heureka it works. What ever the delivery costs are, in the end you safe money and nerves: order from Matt, best quality. I did order light fabric for next one, will take the stored plan from Matt and try to combine a sew and heating diy raft in early 2017.
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Thanks for the review, @webermarcoweber – you are one of the few people who have experience with both the DIY Packraft fabrics and fabrics from ExtremTextil.
Your new fabric is in the mail 🙂
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Ok Matt,
I will order materials directly from you for my next packraft. Quite soon, I think.
My extreme textil packaft floats and works but for more serious wilderness use I will make better quality raft. I don’t want count how many hours I struggled with sealing that fabric… The good thing is that now I know the making process, tools etc. Next one will be much better and easier. Life is learning 🙂
Happy New year 2017!
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I should add that I had no idea that extremtextil’s current tpu fabric is different to the lot from 5 years ago, and it was only discovered when testing to find the right temperature for the new tool. In the end I had to abandon that project and write off the money and time spent on it. This was hugely irritating, but even though these were going to be multi-chamber sleeping mats to guard against punctures, a systemic and total failure in winter means possible hypothermia and worse.
If not for this discovery I would have bought the plans off Matt and the fabric off extremtextil, as shipping to the UK from Germany is considerably cheaper than from Canada.
As it is, I’ve bought one kit from Matt and will buy another a bit later. I need to be sure that a hard hit on boulders will leave it floating in one piece, and the extra shipping cost is insignificant compared to the possible consequences.
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Correction: the original 70d tpu fabric I bought some years ago was from SeattleFabrics, not extremtextil. As others so rightly say, their customer service is diabolically bad, to the point where I expunged the transaction from my memory and assumed that I had bought it from ExtremTextil instead. Despite that I have some samples from them now. The 70d is 226gsm with a thick airtight coating, the 430d 260gsm with a thin coating that needs testing and the 30d 102gsm.
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FYI: while the 70D is good and airtight (I made a sleeping mat out of it once), the 430D is not. The packcloth weave is encouragingly tough against scissors, but the coating is so thin that the edges fray. The weave shows through the coating. A quick welding test shows that the coating is not strong enough, and I cba making a seat cushion to test the airtightness considering that it fails the other tests. Not recommended.
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I used the 210D fabric from the DIY Packraft shop for the multi-colour packraft how-to videos – you can see that it bonds quickly without melting. (I use the same temperature to bond the 40D fabric, too.)
I did a lot of research before deciding what fabrics to purchase for the DIY Packraft shop… I tested TPU-coated fabrics from other suppliers and many of them are not good for heat sealing because the melting temperature of the fabric is too close to the bonding temperature of the TPU, so the nylon melts before the TPU is bonded. It sounds like that is the problem many people are having with fabrics sourced elsewhere.
In general, you should only use nylon-66 because it is stronger and has a much higher melting temperature.
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OK, I’ve just seen that post and added one for the iron I’m using. The original 70den/170gsm tpu fabric I bought 5 years ago from extremextil welds very well at a temp of around 280C, but the new lot just melts at anything more than about 160.
It seems to me that anything extremtextil do not list as “high-tenacity 6.6” is only “nylon 6”. Matt mentions the difference somewhere on this site, and I will not trust the “6” for anything. If you bounce on a sleeping mat I would expect it to break and leave you on the cold ground for the night; if your raft bounces against boulders at speed then I would rather be on shore with a camera than in the raft trying not to drown.
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Hello All,
I got blue 210den nylon tafetta, transparent TPU-coating, 275g/sqm fabric from
http://www.extremtextil.de for my packraft.For inflation bag I got 40den nylon, TPU-coated one side, 70g/sqm from same source.
I found that it was challenging (read: also very slow) to make make good bond with 210D fabric. I had same feelings like Chris.
My 40D fabric bond fast, strong and easy, just like in Matt’s great video tutorial. So I think my sealing equipment is fine.
I’m wondering are those difficulties normal with heavier fabric? Or is the quality of extrem textil’s 210D TPU poor or something?
Matt – What fabric you had on the instruction video – was it 40D or 210D?
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This is interesting. I also got some of their 40den/70gsm fabric, as at the time I intended making two sleeping mats: one from 70den and one from the 40den.
Before starting I made test strips 2cm wide and welded them together at different temperatures. I am now using a converted soldering iron with temp control from 150C to 450C, and a shoe 11mm wide. I found it was virtually impossible to get a sweet spot where it was hot enough to weld but cool enough to not melt. And whenever it seemed to be a success, a hard pull would break the fabric at the juncture of the weld to the unwelded part.
This is exactly where Exped mats fail – frequently the baffles let go inside the mat. My last was UL with 20den fabric, and holding it up to a strong light let me peer inside and left me quite certain that the baffle failed at that juncture.
Extremtextil list the 40den as having a melting point of 163C. What are you using to weld with?
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@Chris
Thank you for your input – so there are more of us complaining about the material (I also found one negative opinion on Facebook). I am happy though that I did not order the full 6m2…I will let you know how in contrast Matt’s material works. Maybe I’ll even make a short video :).
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I ordered a extremetextil only 2m think I vyrobyl a seat with a backrest according kokopellipacraft. Today I cut the two strips on the test and tried to weld. Failed to keep going to pull them apart. I tried the weld tapes and tapes from extremetextil sample he sent Matt, you’re literally repel. The substance of extremetextil seems the same as the mattress mem packraft Nortica but it is welded in presses. Meanwhile work aside and wait until I run out of material from Matt.
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In these days I had more time, so I started to build the raft. The 210d fabrics from extremetextil is really pain in the ass. It is very difficult to seal with the Clover Mini, sometimes it is just not possible. At some point I gave it up, and I just sealed the tube pieces to the floor with my household iron. I used painter’s tape to cover the left and right sides (see photo). It still needed extreme amount of heat (between 2 and 3 points on the iron) plus pressure. But be careful…
I found helpful to place a piece of aluminum foil under the fabrics. It reflects back the heat and helps to have a better seal.
Today I started to join the completed tubes to the floor, pf… again problems with the 210d.
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I have tried the 210d material from extremetextil and I was not able to seal (small pieces) together – despite trying with different temperatures the iron (Clover II) or was sticking to the material (and not sealing, despite the pressure) or not reacting at all. Maybe it is all on me… I have ordered a set of material Samples from Matt – I hope this one will work ;).
@Chris – please let me know whether you manage to find a way dealing with the 210d fabric from extremetextil…Best Regards,
Oskar-
It seems that Extremtextil get in different lots but list them under the same description. About 5 years ago I got some 70den/170gsm tpu nylon to make a sleeping mat, and it heat welded fine. A couple of months ago I got another lot, listed with the same desription, but it just melted when it should have welded. I assume this is the difference between nylon 6 and 6.6 – they melt at radically different temperatures.
I think the onus needs to put on them to either send the right stuff or say that they haven’t been given those details to pass on. They will do half metre lenghts for testing, but shipping is expensive to the UK for small amounts.
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If you are living in the EU then extremetextil.de might be a good choice.
I first wanted to purchase a complete ultralight kit, but after I did the math I didn’t… Why? In the EU we must pay VAT + customs tax above 150 Euro value. In many western countries the package most likely will not pass the customs. In the Netherlands the amount of tax is 35%, in other words around 60-70 Euro plus. However I like the fabrics Matt offers in the shop, this was no-go for me.
Extremetextil is a German company. If you have got a valid EU VAT number than you can save 19% VAT from the price. They ship for 7.95 Euro.
I found the 70den Nylon TPU-coated one side (170g/sqm) and the 210den Nylon TPU-coated one side (275g/sqm) heat-sealable fabrics best for packraft building.
Did some similar tests with the 70D nylon like I’ve seen in Matt’s fabrics comparison video. I could not pull/tear the fabrics apart by hand. However if I made a small cut, then it was very easy to pull apart.
The 210D taffeta is obviously stronger.
The drawback is the color range… the 210D is available in yellow, grey, orange and blue, but surprisingly there is no black. The 70D is, well.. black. There is a blue option but be aware the TPU side is BLACK!
Since I wanted to make my packraft from 70D tubes and 210D floor, it is going to be black with blue floor. Odd combination, I rather would like to have the opposite.
The positive side: it looks like that the raft is going to be under the 900 grams (medium size)!
I found the boston valve in amazon.de and in kitemania.nl (Netherlands). TZIP I only found so far in England…
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